Six in two bedroom flat?
7:26am Wednesday 21st November 2007
Comments (47)A DISTRAUGHT father says he fears he may have to stop seeing two of his children to prevent them living in an "overcrowded and unhygienic" flat.
Mark Payne, 32, believes St Albans District Council is forcing him to make the heartbreaking decision - but has vowed to fight to keep his family together.
Kirstie Amos, 24, and Mark live in a two-bedroom council flat in Pickford Hill, Harpenden, with their daughter Alyssa, two, and accommodate Mark's two other children from a previous marriage at the weekends.
When Kirstie found out she was pregnant the couple applied to be moved to a three bedroom property, but were told they were not entitled to.
As a result the couple say they are being forced to bring up the four children in an overcrowded flat because the council will not recognise visiting children as a need for a larger house.
Mark, a bus driver in St Albans, says he is worried his children will become fed up and won't want to stay with them. He also says if the flat becomes too crowded he may have to make the tough decision to protect them.
He said: "I'm worried I'm going to be left with a crippling decision.
"I either give my children a crowded, and basically sub-standard life here, or I may have to stop seeing them. And there is no way I want to do that. It's not a fair situation to be faced with.
"I just can't believe that there is not anything the council is prepared to do.
"We can't even buy baby clothes, let alone a buggy yet because we literally have nowhere to store them."
Mark and Kirstie have labelled St Albans District Council's housing policy as "out-of-date" and claim family dynamics are changing and so should council policies - a call backed by homeless charity Shelter.
When Kirstie gives birth in February the couple will have no choice but to make Brian, eight, and Amy, six, sleep in the same room as Alyssa and the new baby boy.
Kirstie, who has lived in the flat with Mark for two years, said: "I couldn't believe it when they said we're not entitled to three bedrooms, I thought it was an error.
"We realise they only stay at the weekends, but when they leave they don't take their beds or toys or clothes with them.
"And with a baby on the way we can't possibly fit four children in one room. It's stressful and upsetting that we can't give the children what they need and deserve.
"Families are changing and the council needs to change with it.
"It's as if the council is saying that Brian and Amy don't exist; it's a daft policy.
"There are a lot of families in the same situation as us now. I feel like a failure because I can't provide for my children."
St Albans District Council says its policy for housing only applies to permanent residents. It added that the couple will not be entitled to a three bedroom house until Alyssa turns 11, the age that boys and girls have to be separated.
Georgina Nolan of Shelter Hertfordshire Housing Aid Centre said: "Shelter believes updating the antiquated overcrowding standard is vital if the Government is serious about helping the one million children currently trapped in overcrowded housing.
"The current law, which remains unchanged since 1935, does not count children under one and considers kitchens and living rooms as acceptable places to sleep.
"They must be replaced with a modern overcrowding standard based on today's understanding of the need for space and privacy."
- Who is correct? Should Mark and Kirstie be given a three bedroom house? Tell us below.
Your Say YourSt Albans & Harpenden Review
L Smith, Watford says...
7:04pm Wed 21 Nov 07
I was shocked to read this article on a couple who expect to be handed a three bedroom home because they are having another baby. Do they not realise contraception is free? Clearly not, as they have decided to have another child despite describing their own home as "overcrowded and unhygeinic". Firstly, why add another child to an overcrowded flat? Secondly, no matter how small the flat is I do not understand the hygeine issue... could they not clean it? I find it disgraceful to read that these people expect hard working tax payers to accomodate families who cannot afford to support themselves. I do not see why my husband should go to work all day, every day to pay for his own family's house and Mr Payne's too. And yes, I do think the law should be changed, because as it stands families are being rewarded with larger homes for having more children they cannot afford to keep. The reason I do not have 4 children is simple, I cannot afford a larger home and do not expect anyone else to pay for one for me.
Richard, St albans says...
7:07pm Wed 21 Nov 07
I do not think they should be housed in a 3 bed house. I live with my family and there are five of us permantly resided in a two bed flat and we have been on the housing list for a long time and still face years of living in overcrowded accomadion before having a chance of being rehoused. Marks 2 other children have a permanant address elsewhere so St Albans council should not have to provide a larger property so they can visit. My partners mother lives far away and we would love for her to visit and stay with us so she can see her grandchildren but we do not have the space and therefore have to make other arrangements and i feel that unfortunatly it is up to Mark and his family to do the same and not up to STADC. Also if STADC were to change the rules as suggested by shelter then i feel that it will only increase the waiting lists and mean that people like myself who live in overcrowded conditions permantly will suffer more. Ideally the council need to stop letting developers build more extremely expensive apartments and should build more council and affordable housing and not just for key workers but all those other people like dustman,postman and shopworkers etc who are on a low income but cannot afford to buy their own house.
Fred, st albans says...
7:54pm Wed 21 Nov 07
firstly lets get this all in the rigt place, i understand some of the comments but you are all speaking crap and not everyone is as lucky as you rich people in st albans, however lets get to the real politics firstly tax payers money paying for the move total tosh, your taxes pay for the millions of houses given to people not from this country to house bigger families who claim benifits, maybe you was reading a different article but it says Mr Payne is working so he too is a tax payer and has as much right as you and i so lets not have a go at him lets blame the real vilans here like scdc and the goverment for allowing this country to become a free for all, i agree with one thing they should never have had another baby but we do not know the background i'm no doctor but i am a father and i know that no contraception is 100% and for the record its not free so get a grip and before you say the pill is free you pay for that through your taxes, so you need to think before you speak and get you facts right, SADC give this family the house they deserve his a working man paying his way, lets worry about the homeless thugs that cripple the town by shoplifting and other crimes the problem that really affects the tax payers, or the parking system in st albans that SADC seem to have lost controll of i could go on but i will not
kerry, hatfeild says...
8:11pm Wed 21 Nov 07
i aggree with fred it clearly says mark works so he is a tax payer maybe people should read the artical before posting comments as for the comment about a grandmother seeing her grand kids this is not the issue raised derrrr. Men have to fight for the right to see there children after a split they also have a right to start again with a new family having children with in your means is great if you can affored to buy your home but sadly the council will not give you a big place until you have the kids does this mean every couple wishing to start a family have to wait 20 years to start a family when free loaders from other countries that seem to be rife in st albans have all gone or have managed to save to buy a house is britain turning into a place where young people are discriminated against for trying to set up a home and family???? or are you just discriminaiting against step families being comfortable when they visit the parent who lives away surely its hard enough for everyone involved
Robin Friday, St Albans says...
8:17pm Wed 21 Nov 07
This sounds like a a rather cheeky bit of "journalism" to be, designed to elicit a response from either the "hang 'em and flog 'em" brigade or unintelligent racists like Fred. The gentleman in the story needs to stop being so selfish and realise that we'd all like someone to pick up the tab for our shortcomings in life (I am a divorced father also, so am well aware of space problems with non-resident visitng children) but to threaten to not see your kids unless the State picks up the tab is, at best, selfish and , at worst, despicable. He should be ashamed of himself.
kirstie, harpenden says...
8:26pm Wed 21 Nov 07
firstly i did not discribe my home as unhygeinic my home is clean secondly mark has spent years fighting for his children to visit is it right he should have to give them up as he wants to start another family with me? Even if we didnt have marks children visitng the council would not give you a bigger place until after the baby is born there are people with one child living in a one bed flat and can stay there until the child is 11 this is just as unfair as what we are facing should we all just stop having families to please people the second baby was not planned as you are right we do not have the room yet for it but should i MURDER my unborn infant because mark has to other children and st albans city council do not recognise the fact that his kids stay here. As for t flemming and L Smith who clearly cant read you are not paying a dime to our living mark works he pays rent, council tax just like you and we to hate paying for free loaders to sponge of the state and expect things handed to them on a plate.
I would like to have my children in my home and my 2 bed flat is great for that the issue is the council will not recognise that people like us have step children that visit our neighbour has a one bed flat that has to fit his step kids in we are trying to get recognition for all those people in our situaition that are having trouble seeing there step kids as they dont have the room the courts often will not allow contact wheb the home is to cramped THIS IS THE ISSUE FOR THOSE TO DENSE TO NOTICE!!!!
I would like to have my children in my home and my 2 bed flat is great for that the issue is the council will not recognise that people like us have step children that visit our neighbour has a one bed flat that has to fit his step kids in we are trying to get recognition for all those people in our situaition that are having trouble seeing there step kids as they dont have the room the courts often will not allow contact wheb the home is to cramped THIS IS THE ISSUE FOR THOSE TO DENSE TO NOTICE!!!!
L Smith, Watford says...
8:29pm Wed 21 Nov 07
Ok, so it seems paying a small amount of tax entitles you to a free home now. In that case I should be given a mansion as my husband pays a fortune in tax. Also, I am well aware that contraceptives are funded by the tax payer but would guess they are a **** site cheaper than a three bedroom house. As for foreigners getting benefits and houses I do not agree with that either but as you seem to have been rude to Richard (who seems to be a decent man who tries to do the best for his family) for mentioning his children's grandmother maybe you haven't noticed that immigrants are not relevant to this issue either. "Derrr"
Mark, harpenden says...
8:37pm Wed 21 Nov 07
ROBIN what tab are you on about again some one else not seeing the point if you are a divorced father you should understand, i pay my taxes and have done since i left school i made a mistake in my past and have now settled down again but does this mean i have to keep living in cramped conditions because the law is out dated its the courts that would stop me seeing my kids or there mother as i do not have the room to provid for them.
If the resident mother can get a bigger home when the children of opposite sex turn 11 why are they ok to share a room here surely this is just another case of mothers getting everything after the break up and the dads getting a bumb deal again im either to live in my past mistake and have no more kids, move on have kids and cramp then all into one room, or move on have kids but only see my kids for the day on a saturday if im lucky as i have to WORK!!!! what the hell would you like me to do ?????????
If the resident mother can get a bigger home when the children of opposite sex turn 11 why are they ok to share a room here surely this is just another case of mothers getting everything after the break up and the dads getting a bumb deal again im either to live in my past mistake and have no more kids, move on have kids and cramp then all into one room, or move on have kids but only see my kids for the day on a saturday if im lucky as i have to WORK!!!! what the hell would you like me to do ?????????
kirstie, harpenden says...
8:52pm Wed 21 Nov 07
L smith I wasnt being rude to richard but how is and grandmother visiting the same as a child coming to spend the weekend with there dad and there sister if i was trying to get an extra room so my parents could stay and see my daughter then i would aggree im being daft and expect to much but i would like for my partners kids to be able to have a relaitionship with all of us and this is going to happen when they either cant come to stay because the courts or there mum have said its to much for them or there are argueing because they have had a crap nights sleep because they have had to share a room with a screaming newborn. Also the room in the picture is where myself and mark sleep as we have swaped rooms so the kids can have more space there is no room for the baby in this room it will have to go in with the bigger kids if i could fit my newborn in with us then i would be waiting on the same list Richard is on for my turn for a bigger home. As for the comment on foreigners i do think they are clogging up the system and i do think this is unfair on a lot of people but this is not the point of the artical the point is the law has not changed since 1935 when it was ok for 10 kids to share a bed and sleep in coal sacks under the kitchen sink its out dated and the council need to take note that kids are over crowded even if we hadnt started our own family me and mark would be in a one bed flat now and when brian turns 11 he would share with us and his younger sister we did not have more kids simply to get a bigger place
nicky, st albans says...
8:57pm Wed 21 Nov 07
If you wanted more children you should have sorted out your living arrangements before getting pregnant. Getting pregnant first and then demanding a bigger house was your plan and sadly for you it hasn't worked. A more acceptable plan would have been to work hard and provide yourself with a decent home before having children. This would have preserved your dignity and relieved some of the burden on the taxpayer. As LSmith points out, you are having babies at other peoples expense. Richard of St Albans also makes a valid point- more affordable housing for people on low incomes is badly needed. But, this would not help this family as they have already decided to have the children first and worry about housing later. It's too late to take advantage of affordable housing when you already have 2 children and can't afford it!
So, basically, if you expect other people to provide you with housing then you just have to put up with what they give you. If you don't like it then sort out your family's housing yourself.
Georgina Nolan of Shelter says the Government must help children trapped in overcrowded housing. Why are the government to blame for irresponsible adults having children and then demanding housing? Housing which is quite rightly unavailable to them. Shelter should be criticizing the parents for the situation they find themselves in, not the government.
Using a photo/name of their child in an attempt to get what they want is a despicable act. I can appreciate their dilemma but to expect other people to solve their problems is wrong.
In their favour, Mr Payne does work but one person on a low income with 4 children and living in a council house does not relieve the burden on the taxpayer.
So, basically, if you expect other people to provide you with housing then you just have to put up with what they give you. If you don't like it then sort out your family's housing yourself.
Georgina Nolan of Shelter says the Government must help children trapped in overcrowded housing. Why are the government to blame for irresponsible adults having children and then demanding housing? Housing which is quite rightly unavailable to them. Shelter should be criticizing the parents for the situation they find themselves in, not the government.
Using a photo/name of their child in an attempt to get what they want is a despicable act. I can appreciate their dilemma but to expect other people to solve their problems is wrong.
In their favour, Mr Payne does work but one person on a low income with 4 children and living in a council house does not relieve the burden on the taxpayer.
L Smith, Watford says...
9:08pm Wed 21 Nov 07
I appreciate your situation is difficult and that space is limited at the weekends, however I think it is unfair to expect the Council to rehome you at other people's expense. I understand that the article was aimed to highlight the space issues when children come to stay but the article comes accross that you want a bigger house because you have a baby on the way. This is probably due to the "cheeky journalism" as mentioned by Robin. In an ideal world you would have your own house but I feel that the Council is doing everything they should be and that it is unreasonable to provide a bigger house to accomodate children who only stay at weekends. I wish you all the best with the new baby.
kirstie, harpenden says...
9:11pm Wed 21 Nov 07
HOW IS THE TAX PAYER PAYING FOR ANY OF THIS!!!!!!!!! not matter what place we had the tax payer wouldnt have to pay a penny we are not free loafers the only benifit we get is the same as 90% of the working class child benifit and working tax credits and tthis doesnt having anything to do with housing FOR GOODNESS SAKE what is it with every one think we are free loading no matter how much our council tax is we pay it no matter what rent is we pay it both in full with no help so EOUGH WITH THAT.
I want my daughter to see her brother and sister and mark to see his kids that is his right this baby was not planned as fred said nothing is 100% but surely i have the right to keep my baby.
As i said before if we were only in a one bed with our daughter and this one on the way i wouldnt be moaning im choosing to keep this baby the issue is that the council will not recognise visiting children for anyone no matter what accomodaition they have surely when at the resident home they become in the eyes of the law in need of there own room there need dose not change when they come to stay with here.
I would be happy with a 2 bed house a flat is just to small i can put there toys in the garden they could play safely outside where we are now my daughter can not play outside and be safe near the roads. As i said before we did not have kids to get a bigger place we are just asking for a decent home this poll was set up im assuming by the paper a 2 bed house with a garden would do me.
Also the photographer wanted to use my daughter in the picture and why should she have been left out it made her feel special.
I want my daughter to see her brother and sister and mark to see his kids that is his right this baby was not planned as fred said nothing is 100% but surely i have the right to keep my baby.
As i said before if we were only in a one bed with our daughter and this one on the way i wouldnt be moaning im choosing to keep this baby the issue is that the council will not recognise visiting children for anyone no matter what accomodaition they have surely when at the resident home they become in the eyes of the law in need of there own room there need dose not change when they come to stay with here.
I would be happy with a 2 bed house a flat is just to small i can put there toys in the garden they could play safely outside where we are now my daughter can not play outside and be safe near the roads. As i said before we did not have kids to get a bigger place we are just asking for a decent home this poll was set up im assuming by the paper a 2 bed house with a garden would do me.
Also the photographer wanted to use my daughter in the picture and why should she have been left out it made her feel special.
kirstie, harpenden says...
9:18pm Wed 21 Nov 07
Thank you L smith this is the point i was trying to get accross.
can i ask you though why do you feel that visiting children should not be recognised?
Your right space is hard for any family with step kids as i said above i would be happy with a 2 bed house but the council dose need to update itself with the visiting children rule as i said before there are single men in one bed flats when there kids stay they night the kids are forced to either sleep in the same room as the father sometimes father and step mother or bed down in the living room this is fine when the kids are in a home where the living room is big enough to fit beds in even in our situaition there is no where to put even fold away beds so the kids could camp out in the living room
can i ask you though why do you feel that visiting children should not be recognised?
Your right space is hard for any family with step kids as i said above i would be happy with a 2 bed house but the council dose need to update itself with the visiting children rule as i said before there are single men in one bed flats when there kids stay they night the kids are forced to either sleep in the same room as the father sometimes father and step mother or bed down in the living room this is fine when the kids are in a home where the living room is big enough to fit beds in even in our situaition there is no where to put even fold away beds so the kids could camp out in the living room
Mark, harpenden says...
9:32pm Wed 21 Nov 07
nicky you talk out of your back side you keep on about the tax payer i pay taxes every week like everyone elese who W O R K S both income tax and council tax and as for the council providing homes thats there job 1 of! thats why i pay my taxes so its only what im already paying for!!!!!!!!!!
L Smith, Watford says...
9:36pm Wed 21 Nov 07
Firstly I would like to say that I realise you do not receive benefits other than CB and WTC. I would also like to mention that Council/Housing association rent is hugely subsidised by the Government (tax payers).It's not that I don't think the step children should be recognised, but you must understand that providing every family who have step children with an extra bedroom would be a huge expense to the tax payers who's money goes towards subsidising the rent. If it was a permanent home I could sympathise more, however, for a room that would be empty monday to friday I do not think it is fair on the tax payers for that to be provided. As your partner works it may be worth looking into affordable housing/part rent part buy scheme. I wish you all the best.
kirstie, harpenden says...
9:51pm Wed 21 Nov 07
thank you for replying L Smith this is true a room that would be empty monday to friday does seem a bit daft i can understand your point how ever maybe the council should look at the merits of each case, this is why i have said a 2 bed house would be fine for us right now i am expecting a boy and know when my daughter reaches 11 then they will need there own rooms for now all we need is the room to be able to keep to fold away beds so when they come to stay we can sort them out sleeping space and enough room for the baby in mark and my bed room.
surely a flat with a small child that has no safe outside space to play is a shame enough but when you add the other younger kids being cramped up in a flat as it is not safe for them to all play together outside is daft?
Thank you for wishing us luck i really am not in the buisness of making babies so the council will give us a bigger place and hope anyone who comments after this takes that into consideraition yes 3 bed house would be lovely and the space woulld be great the whole idea of the artical was simply to try and get an outdated policie changed so non resident parents could have over night contact with there children and also have a family with out having to bunch them all up in one room.
NON RESIDENT CHILDREN DO NEED TO BE RECOGNISED
surely a flat with a small child that has no safe outside space to play is a shame enough but when you add the other younger kids being cramped up in a flat as it is not safe for them to all play together outside is daft?
Thank you for wishing us luck i really am not in the buisness of making babies so the council will give us a bigger place and hope anyone who comments after this takes that into consideraition yes 3 bed house would be lovely and the space woulld be great the whole idea of the artical was simply to try and get an outdated policie changed so non resident parents could have over night contact with there children and also have a family with out having to bunch them all up in one room.
NON RESIDENT CHILDREN DO NEED TO BE RECOGNISED
kirstie, harpenden says...
10:10pm Wed 21 Nov 07
The comments regarding forigners clogging up the system was in regards to an artical published by another paper and the fact that over 1000 homes were left unocupied sitting waitting for people seeking asylum to fill me and my family are in no way raicist but wanted to make it clear that all these homes sitting empty could be being used by the council to easy strain on many families not just those with kids but those in tempory accomodaition
FRED, St Albans says...
10:14pm Wed 21 Nov 07
God this is now boring me, Your all missing the point here and none of you have a good point your all clutching at straws, politics is to blame for all of this, think before you speak for crying out loud, Free house what drugs are you on they pay rent how is that free?
Contraception is not 100% god i feel like a parrot and contraception is not free and no your right it does not cost the same as a house and dont tell me i'm off the point when you up your own backside people took the point away in the first place, as for mark and kirstie you had your say in the paper and you do not have to justifie yourself on here so dont even try, people will fight you no matter what you do and say so do not waste your time, Mark give up your job take drugs and go and rob all the shops in st albans people will fill sorry for you and you will get extra benifit that may make these people happy, as far as i see it you are working paying tax just like me, so whats the problem getting a free house come on come up with something better why not blame his parants and insult the poor family more, there are more things to worry about than this small problem in a very big fish bowl, ive got no problem with imigrants i have a problem with free loaders getting houses that english born people deserve first and on top of that getting free tax payers money that ads up to more than a house i may ad let me also ad that some of these imigrants have anything from 3 to 10 children some times a lot more and they do not even have to have the children in this country to get money for them, so before you pick on one small family who yes made a mistake having a baby in the first place in a small flat but you know nothing about, give them a house instead of givimng it to some imigrant i would if it did cost the tax payer prefer to give it to this Mr Payne than some layabout hopless freeloader,
Sorry but we could be here forever talking politics so im off now and i am not returning to this feed as it gets on my nervs
By the way im off now to work so i can feed my 4 kids and pay my way in life before the gutless brits hound me down and hide from the truth
have a nice day oh and England are out of the cup next year sack the manager and give the players less money oh dear going off the point again
BLA BLA BLA BLA !!!!!!
Contraception is not 100% god i feel like a parrot and contraception is not free and no your right it does not cost the same as a house and dont tell me i'm off the point when you up your own backside people took the point away in the first place, as for mark and kirstie you had your say in the paper and you do not have to justifie yourself on here so dont even try, people will fight you no matter what you do and say so do not waste your time, Mark give up your job take drugs and go and rob all the shops in st albans people will fill sorry for you and you will get extra benifit that may make these people happy, as far as i see it you are working paying tax just like me, so whats the problem getting a free house come on come up with something better why not blame his parants and insult the poor family more, there are more things to worry about than this small problem in a very big fish bowl, ive got no problem with imigrants i have a problem with free loaders getting houses that english born people deserve first and on top of that getting free tax payers money that ads up to more than a house i may ad let me also ad that some of these imigrants have anything from 3 to 10 children some times a lot more and they do not even have to have the children in this country to get money for them, so before you pick on one small family who yes made a mistake having a baby in the first place in a small flat but you know nothing about, give them a house instead of givimng it to some imigrant i would if it did cost the tax payer prefer to give it to this Mr Payne than some layabout hopless freeloader,
Sorry but we could be here forever talking politics so im off now and i am not returning to this feed as it gets on my nervs
By the way im off now to work so i can feed my 4 kids and pay my way in life before the gutless brits hound me down and hide from the truth
have a nice day oh and England are out of the cup next year sack the manager and give the players less money oh dear going off the point again
BLA BLA BLA BLA !!!!!!
nicky, st albans says...
10:27pm Wed 21 Nov 07
You are right, The photographer did 'use' your daughter. But that's maybe not your fault so I take back my comment about a despicable act.
I appreciate everything that you are saying but you have to realise that for you to rent a house at a reasonable rate costs the taxpayer enormously.
However, I realise that your situation is difficult. Although you think I am talking out of 'my backside' you miss the point that your rent does not cover the cost of the purchase price of a house or flat. I realise that you pay tax, but as a bus driver this can't be much. If all people that paid tax wanted a council house then there wouldn't be enough to go around. I appreciate that there are problems with separated families but this should not impact on the normal, law abiding taxpayer. If a person buys their own property and then finds themselves short of space for stepchildren, then they have to sort out tne problem themselves. Although your problems are genuine you really do have to sort them out yourselves and not rely on the council(The Taxpayer).
However, I wish you well with the new baby and hope you manage to sort out your probs. I accept the fact that there are people who abuse the system and this makes it worse for people in your situation.
I appreciate everything that you are saying but you have to realise that for you to rent a house at a reasonable rate costs the taxpayer enormously.
However, I realise that your situation is difficult. Although you think I am talking out of 'my backside' you miss the point that your rent does not cover the cost of the purchase price of a house or flat. I realise that you pay tax, but as a bus driver this can't be much. If all people that paid tax wanted a council house then there wouldn't be enough to go around. I appreciate that there are problems with separated families but this should not impact on the normal, law abiding taxpayer. If a person buys their own property and then finds themselves short of space for stepchildren, then they have to sort out tne problem themselves. Although your problems are genuine you really do have to sort them out yourselves and not rely on the council(The Taxpayer).
However, I wish you well with the new baby and hope you manage to sort out your probs. I accept the fact that there are people who abuse the system and this makes it worse for people in your situation.
Mark, harpenden says...
10:50pm Wed 21 Nov 07
I pay the same amount of tax as every one else i belive its around 23% actually im being emegancy taxed so at the moment im probably paying more than you. If every body could leave home and buy there own house then the council wouldnt need HOUSING SERVICES our problem is space we dont need the extra bedroom we need the extra space we do not yet need a 3 bed house although if one was offered i wouldnt turn it down we need space a 2 bed house has the extra storage for the other childrens things i.e a loft and an inclosed garden where the kids can play safe together thats all we want were just brining the point up that the law is out of date and needs reviewing. The only reason we want the council to sort out there rules and house us properly is because we are tenants we pay rent to them so they can do there job if we dont private rent we are only asking the council to do there job and give us the housing we need and recognise the fact that we need space
Fred, St Albans says...
11:09pm Wed 21 Nov 07
Sorry after reading the lat i had to comment, Nicky i do not know you so i will not insult you But How dare you i qoute your line (but this should not impact on the normal)Whos Normal?
Mr Payne Works as a bus driver therfore gets paid less than the normal Well last time i looked Bus drivers got around 20k a year ok its not fantastic but how is that out of the norm?
Come on how dare you insult someone for being a bus driver or paying rent and not being on the housing ladder so to speak, Just because someone cant afford to buy a house does not mean they cannot afford to support a family, and sorry but the rent over time more than pays for the price of the house and the price of repairs, i own a house and i rent it out and i pay for the repairs and i'm raking it in, i have had the house 5 years and allready am in profit so how about this point If the house was paid for by tax payers money and most houses have been at some point, why when the house rent is now making a profit does that money not go back to the tax payer, please do not waste time answering as i'm sure there are plenty of pointless answers, Again my point is do the research before you make a useless point or insult someone out of the normal as you put it How dare you
Anyway I'm sure you did not mean it how it sounded or i would like to think you didn't, 20k a year below the normal bus drivers below the normal, I hope you never need a bus, By the way do if it was not for the below normal people as you put it then who would serve you in he supermarket? or the local shop? how would you fill up your car If you have one? i could go on but thankfully i will not
Mr Payne Works as a bus driver therfore gets paid less than the normal Well last time i looked Bus drivers got around 20k a year ok its not fantastic but how is that out of the norm?
Come on how dare you insult someone for being a bus driver or paying rent and not being on the housing ladder so to speak, Just because someone cant afford to buy a house does not mean they cannot afford to support a family, and sorry but the rent over time more than pays for the price of the house and the price of repairs, i own a house and i rent it out and i pay for the repairs and i'm raking it in, i have had the house 5 years and allready am in profit so how about this point If the house was paid for by tax payers money and most houses have been at some point, why when the house rent is now making a profit does that money not go back to the tax payer, please do not waste time answering as i'm sure there are plenty of pointless answers, Again my point is do the research before you make a useless point or insult someone out of the normal as you put it How dare you
Anyway I'm sure you did not mean it how it sounded or i would like to think you didn't, 20k a year below the normal bus drivers below the normal, I hope you never need a bus, By the way do if it was not for the below normal people as you put it then who would serve you in he supermarket? or the local shop? how would you fill up your car If you have one? i could go on but thankfully i will not
nicky, st albans says...
11:15pm Wed 21 Nov 07
It isn't the councils job to recognise that you need space. It is up to you. Being a parent has huge responsibilities. I think you do need space - lots of it. But, you cannot demand it it from the council. You must look elsewhere and be prepared to pay your own way as millions of us do. I would have loved a council house but I actually had to move from my family home in london to st albans in order to provide a large enough home at a price that I could afford. You may pay tax but you certainly do not pay as much as me. I am quite prepared to assist people worse off than myself, but maybe people unable to support their own needs should be grateful for what taxpayers offer.
nicky, st albans says...
11:29pm Wed 21 Nov 07
Hi fred, I thought you were at work. 20 thousand hardly pays for a 3 bed house, does it? A 3 bed house in St Albans at the mo costs about £500,000. I need to move and cannot find anywhere that I can afford. (I have 3 Kids). Shall I put all my children on the front page of the observer? Or shall I do my best within my limits to provide for my family.
kirstie, harpenden says...
12:12am Thu 22 Nov 07
you can by your own home thats great we can not thats why there are councils so people that can not affored to buy can still live. what your suggesting is that everyone who wants kids should buy there own home sadly this is not always an option having never lived in a council place yourself i dont see how any of this applies to you. Everyones taxes go into the same pot if you want to make this a debate about taxes then maybe you should speak to the paper clearly you have issues with it. Every one can only earn a certain amount eaxh year before tax but i fail to see what any of this has to do with the rights of children get a grip if you wonna moan about taxes and how lifes so unfair on you do it some where else were not asking any one to pay for any of our family so get of your morral high ground you brought your place and thinkthat any one who earns less than you is below you (the norm)
S, Watford says...
12:19am Thu 22 Nov 07
Please,Kirstie and Mark stop pressing F5! You are making fools of yourselves,and feeding the trolls. You really need to sit back and digest what the average joe public is seeing.
kirstie, says...
12:25am Thu 22 Nov 07
Its about the over crowding law and how out dated it is it has naf all to do with taxes or even with wanting the council to give us a bigger place we simply want the local government and council to recognise that the law needs reviewing. its not a debate about taxes where it goes who payes more taxes who has the better job etc please try to understand. Does this mean according to nicky some one who doesnt pay tax shouldnt be starting a family or living in a council house as you would be paying for this as are we and thousands of other people?
G.O'Dea, St Albans says...
2:00pm Thu 22 Nov 07
If you cannot support a family, don't have children. It should'nt be up to the rest of us to support you when you are irresponsible enough to carry on procreating when you blatently cannot provide for your children.
kirstie, says...
3:18pm Thu 22 Nov 07
G.O'DEA WE CAN PROVIDE FOR OUR FAMILY WELL ENOUGH THANK YOU!!!!! Aggrrrhhh if you care to understand the artical or read the other comments posted you might have understood this WE WOULD LIKE THE LAW CHANGED SO VISITING CHILDREN ARE RECOGNISED. NO where do we ask for money benifits people to pay our taxes and although a 3 bed house would be lovely we do not need it a 2 bed house will be fine WE DO NOT NEED A 3 BED THE ISSUE IS NOT HOW MANY KIDS WE HAVE ITS THE SPACE AND STORAGE WE DONT HAVE TO STORE ANYHTING FOR VISITING CHILDREN AS THEY DO NOT HAVE RIGHTS IN THE EYES OF THE COUNCIL
kirstie, says...
3:22pm Thu 22 Nov 07
WE PAY FOR OUR OWN KIDS NO MATTER HOW MANY WE HAD PLEASE PEOPLE UNDERSTAND WE JUST WANT IT RECOGNISED THAT STEP FAMILIES ARE HAVING TROUBLE COPING WITH SPACE,THIS INCLUDES US. THE LAW HAS NOT CHANGED SINCE 1935 ISNT IT TIME IT CHANGED FAMILY DINAMICS ARE CHANGING.
IF WE HAD NO CHILDREN WE WOULD STILL NEED A BIGGER PLACE AS THE COUNCIL DO NOT RECOGNISE VISTING CHILDREN ME AND MARK WOULD BE IN A 1 BED HOME THE KIDS WOULD BE CRAMPED IN WHEN THEY COME TO STAY AND WE WOULD STILL NEED MORE ROOM *****THIS IS THE ISSUE FOR GOODNESS SAKE PEOPLE TRY TO GET THIS*****!!!!!!!!!
IF WE HAD NO CHILDREN WE WOULD STILL NEED A BIGGER PLACE AS THE COUNCIL DO NOT RECOGNISE VISTING CHILDREN ME AND MARK WOULD BE IN A 1 BED HOME THE KIDS WOULD BE CRAMPED IN WHEN THEY COME TO STAY AND WE WOULD STILL NEED MORE ROOM *****THIS IS THE ISSUE FOR GOODNESS SAKE PEOPLE TRY TO GET THIS*****!!!!!!!!!
Fred, st albans says...
5:57pm Thu 22 Nov 07
Hi i finished work and would like to help round off this debate by saying we understand Mark and Kristys dilemma,they simply need a bigger house.so will the council please listen and give them one and everyone will be happy.
Michael, St Albans says...
8:14pm Thu 22 Nov 07
Mark and Kirstie why settle for a three bedroom house? You need a car so not to feel alienated when seeing all the 4x4 drivers one the roads of St Albans. Surely if there was ever a claim to be made it would be that you have the right to own one, especially with four children. And what about the stress you mention, I pity you; a holiday is surely the solution. Come on St Albans District Council, you are there to answer to every whim of your rate payers (and those who do not
), please provide a two week, all expenses holiday for this rightfully hard done by family.
Finally, please can we not have any more news on the homeless, the starving, victims of crime, environmental issues and those who have done something positive for the community. I want to see more front page articles such as this as I for one can proudly say that I do my part for the environment; this news paper makes the perfect is now where it belongs, sitting in my toilet waiting for me to do my bit.
Seriously Mark and Kirstie, you chose to bring these children in to this world now deal with it. If there was any possibility of harm to these children, the council would help without hesitation. Get a couple of camp beds and quilts and make up a couple of beds in the lounge, if is after all only for the weekend.
No Im not wealthy; Im 32 back with parents due to a failed relationship. I work 13+ hours daily for 12K per annum. I cant afford to rent in St Albans let alone buy. So I get of my backside and study so that I can make a better life for myself and not rely on handouts.
Finally, please can we not have any more news on the homeless, the starving, victims of crime, environmental issues and those who have done something positive for the community. I want to see more front page articles such as this as I for one can proudly say that I do my part for the environment; this news paper makes the perfect is now where it belongs, sitting in my toilet waiting for me to do my bit.
Seriously Mark and Kirstie, you chose to bring these children in to this world now deal with it. If there was any possibility of harm to these children, the council would help without hesitation. Get a couple of camp beds and quilts and make up a couple of beds in the lounge, if is after all only for the weekend.
No Im not wealthy; Im 32 back with parents due to a failed relationship. I work 13+ hours daily for 12K per annum. I cant afford to rent in St Albans let alone buy. So I get of my backside and study so that I can make a better life for myself and not rely on handouts.
Mark, Park Street says...
8:20pm Thu 22 Nov 07
RIGHTS FOR FRIENDS TOO. I want a three bedroom house (four if possible) so that when I go out with my mates at a weekend they have somewhere to stay. They have a right to a safe environment and what about the storage of their clothes, are they expected to live in what they have on their backs.
The current law is a farse, it needs to understand the social changes that have taken place post WWII. My friends and I like to socialise and therefore we demand the right to be recognised as so and require accomodation to suit!!!
The current law is a farse, it needs to understand the social changes that have taken place post WWII. My friends and I like to socialise and therefore we demand the right to be recognised as so and require accomodation to suit!!!
Adam, Snorebans says...
8:24pm Thu 22 Nov 07
Surely if what you suggest is correct that any tom-DICK-or-harry should be given a home to suit the needs of their extended family. Scenario. DICK has seven children from three failed relationships. DICK has four children with his current misses. Now with 11 children (7 staying at weekends to be with daddy), should they be given a MANSION! Come on you guys are missing the point. There are people living on the streets, there are people in far worse, daily situations. Maybe we should close all the schools to help pay for this stock thats required? Suggestios Kirstie.
kirstie, says...
7:40am Fri 23 Nov 07
what is it people think we are expecting the council to pay for??? Michale there is no room in the lounge kitchen bathroom or hall way this is why we would like a 2BED HOUSE instead of a 2 BED FLAT still only 2 rooms but there is a loft shed and normally a garden with a house this would allow us the space to get the camp beds.
kerry, hatfield says...
11:34am Fri 23 Nov 07
I think that a select few are missing the point that kirstie and mark are making. They DO NOT WANT a 3 bed house they just want somewhere that is safe for their children to sleep and play. I agree that the policy needs updating with so many families divided these days the council does need to recognise visiting children. I have no children of my own but my partner has 2 from a previous relationship. Obviously the childrens mother has the correct sized home, but my partner has a bedsit, which is fair enough but hardly appropriate when his children come visiting. His daughter is due to turn 11 soon, is it right that she should have to share a bed with her father. All that his council have said regarding the issue is that she will have to sleep in the kitchen! Where I ask? in the oven? So in summary I do appreciate that is is a great strain for the council to be expected to house growing families with a lack of housing, but I also sympatise with Kirstie and Mark as it cannot be easy with 3-4 children in a small 2 bed flat. The best of luck to you!
And as for you people who are fortunate enough to be well off enough to have your own home, Well done but you are hardly in a position to pass judgement on struggling families who have just started out in life. Im sure you have worked hard to achieve property ownership, but that does not mean that Mark is not working hard to provide for his family, he could just as easily be sitting on his bottom at home claiming benefit, but he has chosen to do the right thing and work, cut them some slack. The reason for the lack of council housing in the UK is that the government are not providing local councils with the funds to build to meet demand from assylum seekers as well as the uk citizens. This is where the issues lie. Best of luck to you Kirstie and Mark and congratulations on your new baby, I hope they update the laws soon.
And as for you people who are fortunate enough to be well off enough to have your own home, Well done but you are hardly in a position to pass judgement on struggling families who have just started out in life. Im sure you have worked hard to achieve property ownership, but that does not mean that Mark is not working hard to provide for his family, he could just as easily be sitting on his bottom at home claiming benefit, but he has chosen to do the right thing and work, cut them some slack. The reason for the lack of council housing in the UK is that the government are not providing local councils with the funds to build to meet demand from assylum seekers as well as the uk citizens. This is where the issues lie. Best of luck to you Kirstie and Mark and congratulations on your new baby, I hope they update the laws soon.
SWS, St Albans says...
10:29pm Fri 23 Nov 07
Whining council tenants yet again!
Don't they know what life is like out here in the private sector?
So what if he's a taxpayer, I pay over £1,500 a month to the Govt and almost £2,000 a month for my home. I'd love to live in subsidised housing.
Try being a net contributor mate instead of being a drain on society. Show you can be a responsible citizen - Have a snip!!
Don't they know what life is like out here in the private sector?
So what if he's a taxpayer, I pay over £1,500 a month to the Govt and almost £2,000 a month for my home. I'd love to live in subsidised housing.
Try being a net contributor mate instead of being a drain on society. Show you can be a responsible citizen - Have a snip!!
Jane Scaysbrook, St Albans says...
10:16am Sat 24 Nov 07
I've recently returned from Kenya where a family of 6 would be absolutely thrilled with a 2 bedroom flat, no doubt with a roof, electricity etc, Mark Payne and his partner don't know when they are well off. They should have thought of all this before they decided to enlarge their family, if they ever made a measured decision that is. The step-children should feel privileged to have 2 homes and will just have to settle for transportable beds and storage like ½ of the world's population would be thrilled to have . Leave our hard pressed housing services alone and allow them to concentrate on people with real needs not merely cosmetic ones.
Oliver, Harpenden says...
11:56am Sat 24 Nov 07
Mark and Kirstie are personal friends of mine and, regardless of their political beliefs, I know that Mark's children often stay, and not just for the occasional weekend. The article fails to mention this fact, and I know that what Mark and Kirstie are really asking for is that each case be judged individually, rather than just having a blanket law covering everyone. Mark's two children from his previous marriage come to stay whenever their mother can't cope with them - which is often EVERY weekend plus holidays. These children spend more than 50% of their time living with Mark and Kirstie, despite having a three-bed home with garden at their mother's house. Mark still pays maintenance for their upkeep despite this. Mark works odd shift hours so is often not at home when they are there, leaving Kirstie to cope with two upset children, plus her own, and NO SPACE. I don't see how this is fair, and I get upset by posters who see the words "council tenants" and assume that that equates to being free-loaders and below the "norm" whatever that is. Who's being bigoted now?
nicky, st albans says...
8:32pm Sat 24 Nov 07
I fully appreciate the point that they are trying to make now that it has been explained in full. But one still has to remember that to provide housing for people has an impact on the taxpayer. My use of the term 'normal' has been critised but merely means people without 'ex' families, paying for their own children and housing. or indeed, people with no children at all forced to pay for other peoples 'problems'. Whatever the background to these cicumstances and however unfortunate these cases may be this does still not make a 'normal' person feel happy about providing for these dependent children. I would suggest that within the 'council house community' kirstie and Mark are probably more deserving than most but please don't expect tax paying, home owning citizens to feel sorry for them. Contrary to earlier comments, home owners are not all lucky, rich, fortunate or any thing else that has been thrown at them. Most home owners are skint and struggling to keep a home for their family. My husband and I worked long and hard to buy a 2 bed flat for our family and then when we needed more room we moved to an area cheaper and far from our families and friends. So please excuse us if we have little sympathy for people in subsidised council accomodation.
Rabia Amrouchi, St Albans says...
10:08pm Mon 26 Nov 07
I have only had the change to read your article, I will keep it short & sweet, NO I don't feel that they should get a 3 bedroom house they are lucky to have a 2 bedroom as it is with a 2 year old permanently living with them, they need to give up there double bed/bedroom at the weekend for the other kids and Mark & Kirstie need to sleep on the couch. I was born & bred in St Albans, I have a 1 bedroom flat with me my husband and two children aged 41/2 & 11/2 all sleeping in the one bedroom with me and my husband having to sleep on the floor HOW DO THE COUNCIL EXPLAIN THAT . I have currently waited nearly 41/2 years for a 2 bedroom, I have contacted the council, the best they can come up with is Why dont you try another area as St Albans is so demanding otherwise I have to wait my turn on the points system, Okay fair, but why are other councils willing to house people like me & not St Albans County I feel that I am being pushed out of my own town,
St Albans District Council says its policy for housing only applies to permanent residents. What do they mean by permanent residents us or those foreigners coming from other countries taking all our housing stock? And forgotten about those who are British Citizens on the waiting list and making matters worst for themselves by adding more people to its waiting list?
L M, st albans says...
10:03pm Wed 28 Nov 07
For those going on about the tax payers... just because you live in a council house doesn't mean the taxpayers are paying your way for goodness sake... we still pay our own rent, council tax, fuel food, ect ect ect!
BUT.... sorry Kirstie but I don't agree that you should get a 3 bedroom house.... I know it's akward with the extra two at the weekends but there are people with those children PERMANENTLY and council housing is actually getting more and more scarce(sp?) so there are many more deserving parents already waiting.
I am really lucky that I have a 2 bedroom house for me, hubby and our 3 1/2 yr old and 1 1/2 yr old... and as I write this both girls are asleep in our room and havn't been sleeping in the other bedroom so I can't see that difficulty for you, since the baby isn't born yet and won't need a room for a year or so.
Also... my inlaws come over for 6 months of the year (1/2 the time compared for your 2/7 of the time) and this doesn't entitle us to an extra room.... nor the fact that this year we're also having my sil too.... so we share be squeezing 6-8 adults and 3-4 children in...
And kids really don't need all those toys, they don't see their father all week... they need HIM at the weekend, not toys...
BUT.... sorry Kirstie but I don't agree that you should get a 3 bedroom house.... I know it's akward with the extra two at the weekends but there are people with those children PERMANENTLY and council housing is actually getting more and more scarce(sp?) so there are many more deserving parents already waiting.
I am really lucky that I have a 2 bedroom house for me, hubby and our 3 1/2 yr old and 1 1/2 yr old... and as I write this both girls are asleep in our room and havn't been sleeping in the other bedroom so I can't see that difficulty for you, since the baby isn't born yet and won't need a room for a year or so.
Also... my inlaws come over for 6 months of the year (1/2 the time compared for your 2/7 of the time) and this doesn't entitle us to an extra room.... nor the fact that this year we're also having my sil too.... so we share be squeezing 6-8 adults and 3-4 children in...
And kids really don't need all those toys, they don't see their father all week... they need HIM at the weekend, not toys...
DA, St.A says...
11:49am Thu 29 Nov 07
Absolutely not, it is unfair all the critisicms that aimed at SADC, they have to adhere to policies and procedures same as all authorities. Petty articles in local papers aren't going to get law changed. In the article, shelter says the law has remained unchanged since the 1930's however SADC has to point applications via its allocation policy. Shekter also say that councils count kitchens as places to sleep - rubbish, they are referring to parlour houses which count living rooms as places where beds can be placed. I am on the housing list but i accept that the likelyhood that i would ever be housed is slim to non existent as the council stock in the district is very small. Besides people are saying that the council should be building new properties but as most people will not be aware is that councils aren't allowed to aquire new properties, all social housing now a days is allocated to housing associations, so why dont mark and kirstie approach HA's for a transfer? dont bite the hand that feeds you!! be pro active, besides the council wouldnt treat marks children as if they didnt exist, they just couldnt be concidered for a bedroom !! I accept that my child cannot be on my application as they reside with there mother most of the time, unless i was granted custody of course. In summary, people in general, not jus m&k should be less expectant of local authorities, they only adhere to policies set out by law and the government.
jemma, says...
10:49pm Wed 9 Jan 08
I AINT FROM ST. ALBANS BUT FOUND THIS ARTICLE AND FOUND IT VERY INTRESTING!! FOR THE PEOPLE WHO DONT LIVE IN A SMALL 2 BED FLAT, I LIVE IN A SMALL 2 BED FLAT, JUST ME AND MY DAUGHTER! THERE IS NO ATTICK, NO LOFT, NO SHED, NO GARDEN NO NOTHING! AND YES IT IS VERY HARD 2 STORE YOUR THINGS. I CAN SEE WHERE MARK N KIRSTIE ARE COMING FROM, A 2 BED FLAT IS TOO SMALL FOR THAT AMOUNT OF PEOPLE. BY THE TIME YOU FIT YOUR CUPBOARDS IN AND ALL YOUR OTHER ESSENTIALS, THERE IS HARDLY ANY SPACE! I AM NOT SAYING THAT THE COUNCIL SHOULD GIVE THEM PRIORITY BECAUSE THEY ARE HAVING ANOTHER CHILD, BUT WHERE DO YOU EXPECT FOR THE PARENTS TO PUT THE CHILDS THINGS! STORE THEM INT HE PASSAGES ISIT, SURELY THATS A HAZARD, 2 BED FLATS ARE WAY 2 SMALL 2 BRING UP ANOTHER CHILD, AND SOME PEOPLE SHOULD RECOGNISE THIS. NOT CRITICISE IT. I HOPE YOU BOTH HAVE SOME LUCK, AND IGNORE ALL THESE LUNATICS MOUTHING OFF ABOUT PAYING TAX ETC... MARK WORKS!!
kimberley, south wales says...
11:29pm Thu 10 Jan 08
I am not from St Albans,but my friend told me about this artical and i had to read it!!
i live in a 2 bed flat myself and im not being funny but it is only me and my 2 yr old son and my flat is too small so i understand where kirstie and mark are coming from. How can u people criticise them from wanting what is best for their children, i agree with everything that jemma has said, you people how own your own homes are so lucky and you dont realise it, you lot keep going on about tax payers yet mark works what more do u want from him and as for calling them free loads how are they suppose to be free loaders if the guy is working are you people stupid or something.If you want to have a got at a free loader have a go at me because i dont work i get benifits so all you taxpayers pay for me ha ha ha so god sake give them a break you bunch of toffs
i live in a 2 bed flat myself and im not being funny but it is only me and my 2 yr old son and my flat is too small so i understand where kirstie and mark are coming from. How can u people criticise them from wanting what is best for their children, i agree with everything that jemma has said, you people how own your own homes are so lucky and you dont realise it, you lot keep going on about tax payers yet mark works what more do u want from him and as for calling them free loads how are they suppose to be free loaders if the guy is working are you people stupid or something.If you want to have a got at a free loader have a go at me because i dont work i get benifits so all you taxpayers pay for me ha ha ha so god sake give them a break you bunch of toffs
Matthew, St Albans says...
4:05pm Fri 11 Jan 08
I don't really want to comment on the original story, but I would like to express my views on the previous two 'eloquent' comments. Anyone who thinks that home-owners have an easy life or are 'toffs' clearly has no understanding of some of the hardships that have to be borne in order to buy a house. I worked 7 days a week in order to afford mine, as well as living off baked beans and pasta. Nobody is entitled to something for nothing. I bought a house because I wished to invest in my future and that of my family - it was not a soft option on the back of some excessive privilege.
Gareth Baughan, st albans says...
4:43pm Fri 25 Jan 08
I can sympathise with Mark and Kirsty's situation to a certain degree. My partner and I only have 1 child and are fighting for a council house as I cannot afford to rent in the private sector. Anyone who has been caught in the benefit trap knows that no matter how hard or long you work, anything earned above your standard wages just gets taken away in benefit, therefore making it impossible for anyone claiming housing benefit to earn any extra money to support their families. I realise they are in council accomodation so are not entitled to housing benefit but we are all tarred by the same brush as far as the well off citizens are concerned. However, I do have a simple solution to their dilema.... If, as their friend Oliver states, "the mother of Marks 2 children has a 3 bed house and sends the kids to Mark when she can't cope which is 50% of the time" why don't the council swap their houses as she has a 3 bed house to herself for 50% of the time. Would this not solve the problem without any sacrifice from the "taxpayer". We all pay tax relative to what we earn so those paying £1500.00 per month in tax are obviously earning far too much!
Mark and Kirstie with Alyssa, two. The couple want to leave their two bedroom flat to accommodate what will be a family of six.
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T Fleming, St Albans says...
6:46pm Wed 21 Nov 07